(From Lognet 93/4. Used with the permission of The Loglan Institute, Inc.)
We have something a little different this time, something which we were tempted to call lo clivi logla (living Loglan). Instead of a story that has been carefully checked and double-checked, we have a real electronic mail conversation between two logli who are actually trying to communicate. They weren't always correct in their usage, of course, but we've decided to present this as an "historical document" and save our corrections for the translation that appears later in this article. It should be interesting to see how well they manage with our newly formed language.
The first message of this exchange was in English, with a single line of Loglan at the end. We will start with that single line, since it was the start of everything that followed.
Tio bi lemi braonu je lio pineto, soi crano,
Hue Djeimz.
Hoi Djeimz, fie,
Mi no saadja liu pineto, ji vi li, Tio bi lemi braonu je lio pineto, lu. I laeli, lemi braonu je lio pineto, lu ciksii laeli, lemi sanekuavo braonu, lu mi. I ei tu sirto lepo tu pa furmoi lepo srite liu pineto, enoi liu pinito, soi crano? I ea li, lemi to cenybraonu, lu gudbi plipua vi levi steti.
Nao oi tu dremao lemi lerci, soi clafo,
Hue Djim
Hoi Djim, fie,
Lo braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba, soi crano.
Soi srisu, liu pinito dremou liu pineto. Ibuo, li Mi no saadja liu pineto lu ji nu cutse tu no dreti, isoa tu saadja liu pineto, e siodja lemi nu sanpa. I tu mou siodja lepo liu pineto no sanpa lemi nu sanpa.
Tu siodja roba, soi crano,
Hue Djeimz
Hoi Djeimz, fie,
Mi banfeokri lepo lo braonu pacenoina nu plizo lo logli lo cmeni je la Loglandias, guo lepo lo braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba; ice tio gudbi nu crano, soi crano! I hu nu plizo lo logli? I lo dalri?
Nao peu le notpai je letu lerci mi norkui nu normuocko lepu lepo penso gu numpue. I tu he? I ei letu berna napa nu ge mela Uorf, ckozu?
Hue Djim
Hoi Djim, fie,
Mi pa danza lepo cutse li Ba goi, lo braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba. lu. I soaki be goi, lo braonu pacena ju vedma be ki lo braonu pacena nu plizo vi la Loglandias.
Kanoi lo braonu pacenoina nu plizo ki cao raba goi, lo braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba. I ei, tu togri?
Zou, tu plizo le kenti sanpa vi lielei lo dalri? lei hu? I li lo dalri lu no kenti.
No, lemi berna napa nu ge mela Uorf, ckozu, inorau mi nu plizo lepo tu jupni lepo bei dui. I lo mela Uorf, berna ga no cnida toni minta lepo ridle letu lerci, soi crano,
Hue Djeimz
Hoi Djeimz, fie,
Mi haispe je lepazi lerci je tu gue gue go mutce mutce. I mi fundi lepo tu sacduo lotu stegru lo no meliu i, purda. I lepo pifno plizo lo meliu Nao, ga cketeu.
Mi reible lepu da lodpue jio da bi letu neri ge steti tora. I rea mi cao togri tu letu ri nu fadpeo.
Tu dredju rea. I li, I lo dalri?, lu no kenti. I oe mi pa cutse li, I ei lo dalri dui?, lu. I mi garti tu le nu banfeokri nu dremao.
Na letu rari stegru tu pa plizo liu plizo, vi ne sitfa jio mi jupni lepo tu pa furmoi lepo plizo liu pluci, vi sei. Ibuo ou. I mi pa fasru banfeokri lepo tu sanpli liu plizo, liu pluci,
Hue Djim
A sentence-by-sentence translation, with occasional commentary, follows.
This (situation) is my measured-in-brownoo's-as-0.12, *grin*,
Recall that a braonu is the whimsical unit of currency that is used in Loglandia, according to Bill Gober's column in Lognet 92/3. This is an attempt to say "just my 2¢ worth", but this poor fellow has confused the digits ne and ni. This is a common mistake in our experience.
Hue Djeimz.
Says James.
This is the "traditional" way of signing a letter (if anything so new can be called a tradition).
O James, friend,
And this is the traditional way to write a salutation. Fie is one of a handful of words that may be used for this purpose. It means friend or comrade and is less intimate than die dear and more friendly than the neutral marker nue Mr.Ms./Mrs., which would be used for strangers or acquaintances of equal rank; see LN90/1:8 for the whole range of "register markers".
Mi no saadja liu pineto, ji vi li, Tio bi lemi braonu je lio pineto, lu.
I don't understand (sign-know) the-word 'pineto' (0.12) which is in (quote),Tio bi lemi braonu je lio pineto, (unquote).
It is good usage to pause after the operand of liu, thus clearly establishing its right boundary. We've put a pause-comma after the first instance of pineto even though the original did not contain it.
I laeli, lemi braonu je lio pineto, lu ciksii laeli, lemi sanekuavo braonu, lu mi.
(And) the-addresee-of (quote), my .12 Browns worth, (unquote) seems like (seems to be equal to) the-addressee-of (unquote), my almost-1/8th of a Brown worth, (unquote) to me.
As you can see, the original mistake has been noticed and is now being pointed out.
I ei tu sirto lepo tu pa furmoi lepo srite liu pineto, enoi liu pinito, soi crano?
(And) is-it-the-case-that you are certain that the-event-of you intended to do the-event-of writing the-word '.12' and not the-word '.02', *grin*. (Are you sure you meant to write 12¢ and not 2¢?)
I ea li, lemi to cenybraonu, lu gudbi plipua vi levi steti.
(And) I-suggest -that (quote),"my two centibrownoos" (unquote),is a better usage (use-word) in this sentence.
Nao oi tu dremao lemi lerci, soi clafo,
Now it-is-permissible-that you correct my letter, *laugh*,
That sounded like a challenge to James, soi crano!
Hue Djim.
Says Jim.
O Jim, friend,
Lo braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba, soi crano.
The-mass-of brownoos before-and-not-now (no longer) is the price of something x, *grin*.
This is obviously an attempt at saying, A dollar doesn't buy what it used to. I say "attempt" because it doesn't quite work, and for rather subtle reasons. While lo braonu seems to have the fuzzyness of dollars (that is, we are describing the inflationary properties of all dollars), it is too fuzzy in this case. But the subtleties don't end there as we'll see.
Soi srisu, liu pinito, dremou liu pineto.
Seriously, the-word pinito, is more-correct than the-word pineto.
Again, we've supplied a missing pause-comma after pinito.
Ibuo, li, Mi no saadja liu pineto, lu ji nu cutse tu no dreti,
However, the (quote) I don't understand (sign-know) the-word 0.12, (unquote) which is said by you is not correct.
isoa tu saadja liu pineto, e siodja lemi nu sanpa.
because (of the premise) you understand (sign-know) the-word 0.12 and understand (system-know) my meaning.
Note the two different senses of understand which require two different Loglan words, both of which are complexes based on djano know Also note that tu is the first argument for both saadja and siodja, a very Loglan and rather un-English construction.
I tu mou siodja lepo liu pineto, no sanpa lemi nu sanpa.
(And) you in-addition understand (system-know) that the-event-of (the-word '0.12' is not the sign for my meaning). (You know that '0.12' is not what I meant.)
Again a missing pause-comma has been supplied. Mou is now a PA-word meaning more than; see the Sau La Keugru in this issue. The Keugru thinks that mou's former work can be adequately performed by sui also/moreover. In this sentence sui would be attached to I, where it would modify the whole utterance: Isui tu siodja lepo liu pineto, no sanpa lemi nu sanpa. = And-moreover you understand that the-word pineto is not a/the sign for my meaning.
Tu siodja roba, soi crano,
You understand (system-know) many-things, *grin*,
Hue Djeimz.
Says James.
O James, friend,
Mi banfeokri lepo lo braonu pacenoina nu plizo lo logli lo cmeni je la Loglandias, guo lepo lo braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba;
I infer the-event-that a brownoo is before-and-not-now (no longer) being used by Loglanders for money issued by Loglandia from the-event-that brownoos are no longer the price of something x.
ice tio gudbi nu crano, soi crano.
and this (situation) is nicely smiled at. *grin*
He's basically pointing out the problems with the lo braonu line, but he goes too far. Just because something isn't bought with brownoos doesn't mean that nothing is bought with brownoos.
I hu nu plizo lo logli? I lo dalri?
(And) what is used by the Loganists? Dollars. ('?' ???)
The word is dalra, not *dalri. Also, Jim has tried to turn lo dalri [sic] into a question by adding a question mark. That's not good enough for Loglan, where the '?' is not really part of the language (all punctuation must be spoken) and is used only in text and as a courtesy to the reader.
Nao peu le notpai je letu lerci mi norkui nu normuocko lepu lepo penso gu numpue.
Now concerning the other-part (rest) of your letter I am absolutely immobilized by the-property-that the-event-of thinking has of being precise (numerically perfect) (i.e., by the precision of the thinking)
He later said that he was trying to say that he was "stunned". This seems a fair way to say that, without resorting to the English metaphor.
I tu he? I ei letu berna napa nu ge mela Uorf, ckozu?
You are what? Is it the case that your brain has been Whorf-caused? (Whorfianized?)
Mela is is used to turn the name Uorf into an adverb which modifies ckozu. I must admit that this highest of Loglan compliments, soi crano, doesn't sound all that nice in English.
Hue Djim.
Says Jim.
O Jim, friend,
Mi pa danza lepo cutse li, Ba goi, lo braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba, lu.
I desired the-event-of saying (quote), For some x, brownoos are no longer the price of x (unquote).'
I soaki be goi, lo braonu pacena ju vedma be, ki lo braonu pacena nu plizo vi la Loglandias.
Since, for some y, brownoos are still the price of y, therefore brownoos are still used in Loglandia.
It's good usage to pause before ki, so we've supplied a pause-comma here. James is trying to point out Jim's logical error by saying that while brownoos won't buy some things, they will buy others. He hasn't yet abandoned the lo, so he hasn't really changed the original problem. Only the last phrase, lo braonu pacena nu plizo, is correct. The mass of brownoo's are before-and-now, that is, still, being used. (At least in our imaginary Loglandia.)
Kanoi lo braonu pacenoina nu plizo ki cao raba goi, lo braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba. I ei, tu togri?
If brownoos are no longer used, then for (stress next word) ALL x, brownoos are no longer the price of x. (And) is-it-the-case-that you agree?
That was the last reference to brownoos in the correspondence, so it's time to take this sentence apart and see what the problem is. Let's put the question of how to designate a price aside for a moment by replacing lo braonu with a neutral Pai (for prati) and start our analysis with.what James wants to say about P (we know what that is because he told us, soi crano):
Pai pacenoina fu vedma ba. = P is no longer a/the price of something x.
We can sense James's intention more clearly by making the quantifier explicit:
Ba goi, Pai pacenoina fu vedma ba. = There is some (at least one) x such that P is no longer a/the price of x.
Now the compound tense can be expanded within the scope of this existential quantification :
Ba goi, Pai pa fu vedma ba, ice Pai no na vedma ba. = There is some x such that P was the price of x, and P is not now the price of x.
Once expanded it is clear that James used this "long-scope ba" correctly even though it was a bit mysterious to our English heads and Jim didn't at first see its meaning. Making the quantification explicit and expanding the compound tense within its scope helped us to see what James meant.
Now we need to go back and replace Pai with something more appropriate than lo braonu. We suspect that the lo-form is too massive. It designates not only the mass of brownoo currency, the bills and coins of Loglandia, but also of ordinary things that are worth brownoos, which would end up including all the tradegoods and accumulated wealth of Loglandia! With this in mind it is tempting to say ne braonu = some one brownoo, that is, some one thing that is worth the default value of one brownoo. But that would be saying that there is some one thing measuring in worth exactly one brownoo, say my sweater, that was "the price of" something else and is not now its price. But wait! Sweaters are not prices. Prices are not physical objects at all! They are numbers. So what we want here is not a designation of any physical thing or things in terms of what they are worth in brownoos; what we want is a designation of something that mathematicians would call a "dimensioned number", like "2 centimeters"or "20 lightyears" or "32ft/sec/sec", of which in this case broanu will supply the dimension. For example, lio to braonu = the number 2 brownoos would be a possible price. Once this ontological point is cleared up--that prices are not physical objects but instances of those abstract objects we call numbers--then we suddenly know what to do. We can now recommend to James that he use lio instead of lo, say, for example, lio braonu = the number (by default, one) brownoo, should he wish to make this sort of claim.again.
Now it's true that Lio braonu pacenoina ju vedma ba = (There is an x such that) the-number (one) brownoo was-once-but-is-no-longer the-price-of x. still doesn't quite say what we think James wanted to say. That's because it admits the possibility that x is now priced at less than one brownoo. But correcting this would take us into the art of using Loglan comparatives, and that had better be reserved for another day.
Zou, tu plizo le kenti sanpa vi lielei lo dalri? lei hu? I li lo dalri lu no kenti.
By-the-way, you use the question sign in (quote) lo dalri? (unquote) because of what reason? And (quote) Lo dalri (unquote) is not a question, soi crano.
James continues Jim's error by using the word *dalri instead of dalra. He also used strong quotation with lie in order to be sure to pick up the question mark in the quote which, as we said, isn't really a part of Loglan. Lie can use any word to mark the boundaries of the quoted material, and the letter word lei (lower-case L) was chosen by James to remind us that the language quoted is still Loglan. It would probably have been better if James had used the new quotation suffix -zi to indicate that he was quoting text: thus lizi, lo dalri?, lu. Note the pause-commas after the lizi and before the lu. The repaired sentence becomes: Zou, tu plizo le kenti sanpa vi lizi, lo dalra?, lu hu? I li, lo dalra, lu no kenti.
No, lemi berna napa nu ge mela Uorf, ckozu,
It-is-not-the-case-that my brain has been Whorf-caused (Whorfianized?)
inorau mi nu plizo lepo tu jupni lepo bei dui.
despite (reason) I am please by the-event-of your thinking the-event-of it has (although I'm pleased that you think it has).
Bei dui is a rather tricky bit of anaphora. Bei is a letter variable, one that refers to lemi berna, and dui is a predicate variable that was intended to refer to nu ge mela Uorf, ckozu. This is the sort of elegant shorthand that natural languages excell in. Alas, the precise usage of dui hasn't been completely settled yet, so it's not clear what it refers to here We think it ought to refer to the whole predicate expression, the predicate plus its sutori terms. No doubt the Keugru will have a look at this question before long.
I lo mela Uorf, berna ga no cnida toni minta lepo ridle letu lerci, soi crano,
A Whorf brain doesn't need 20 minutes for the-event-of reading your letters *grin*,
At least he got his numbers right this time. Unless it really takes him 21 minutes, soi crano. On the other hand, if he didn't mean exactly twenty minutes, it would have been better to say sitoni minta = as much as twenty minutes.
Hue Djeimz
Says James.
O James, friend,
Mi haispe je lepazi lerci je tu gue gue go mutce mutce.
I (enjoy the near-before (recent) letter from you) with extreme extremes.
This is an inventive usage. Note the two gue's that close off the two je's and allow the predicate phrase started with haispe to continue. This really says Mi mutce mutce haispe, but it says it in the afterthought style, so characteristic of English adverbs and adverbial phrases, which Jim is obviously copying here.
I mi fundi lepo tu sacduo lotu stegru lo no meliu i, purda.
I am fond of the-event-of you starting (start-doing) your paragraphs (sentence-groups) with non-(the-word-"I") words.
I lepo pifno plizo lo meliu Nao, ga cketeu.
(And) the-event-of frequently using the-word Nao, is boring (time-stretching).
Mi reible lepu da lodpue jio da bi letu neri ge steti tora.
I marvel (dream-look) at the-property-of X's rigour such-that X is your first sentence-pair.
This contains an interesting usage, and as far as we know, it's quite new. Grammatically the jio-clause modifies the entire argument lepu da lodpue, and if we had used ji- it would have done so semantically as well. Instead, using jio da bi- tells us that we are only modifing the da which is inside lepu da lodpue. This seems to be sufficient to make the writer's intention utterly clear.
I rea mi cao togri tu letu ri nu fadpeo.
(And) clearly I (stress next word) agree with you about your several conclusions (end thoughts).
By the way, rea has been redefined since the 4th edition of L1 was printed. It is now derived from frena front and means clearly/obviously.
Tu dredju rea. I li, I lo dalra, lu no kenti.
You are fair (correctly-judge) obviously. (And) (quote) I lo dalra? (unquote) is not a question.
I oe mi pa cutse li, I ei lo dalra dui?, lu.
I should have said (quote) (And) is it the case that dollars are?(unquote).
In the last three lines we've corrected Jim's original *dalri three more times.
I mi garti tu le nu banfeokri nu dremao.
I am grateful to you for the inferred (beyond-facts-believed) correction (correct-made).
Na letu rari stegru tu pa plizo liu plizo, vi ne sitfa jio mi jupni lepo tu pa furmoi lepo plizo liu pluci, vi sei.
During your last paragraph you used the-word plizo (use) in one place such that I believe (the-event) that you intended (the-event) to use the-word pluci (pleases) in s (that place). (I think you intended to say "pluci" there.)
Ibuo ou,
However, no matter,
I mi pa fasru banfeokri lepo tu sanpli liu pluci, guo liu plizo.
(And) I easily inferred (beyond-fact-believed) the-event-that you alluded (sign used) to the word 'pluci' (the inference having been made) from the word 'plizo. (I inferred that you meant the word 'pluci' from the word 'plizo'.)
Hue Djim.
Says Jim.
Copyright 1993 by The Loglan Institute, Inc. All rights reserved.
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